Doubting Bro

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Posts by Doubting Bro

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  40

  MY FIRST POST!!!!!

  by drewcoul in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i have been reading this website for months now.

  i am a born in who holds absolutely no animosity toward any witness.

  i have had weeks and weeks of trouble trying to log in, but i'm here now.. long story short, i am one of 4 children who were raised as witnesses.

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  Doubting Bro

  Welcome Drew. Wow you've certainly seen quite a bit. Look forward to hearing more from you.
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  25

  European Court of Human Rights to hear JWs tax case against France

  by AndersonsInfo in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  http://www.expatica.com/fr/news/french-news/europe-court-to-hear-jehovah-witness-tax-case-against-france_99836.html.

  europe court to hear jehovah witness tax case against france 9-29-10. the european court of human rights said wednesday it had agreed to consider a case brought by the jehovah witness christian sect against the french government over taxation of donations.. in its request, the group alleged an infringement of the right to religious freedom saying the french government had tried to curtail its activities by demanding in may 1998 taxes on donations from its followers.. the sect said the move was an attempt to end the autonomy of religious communities.. french authorities say the donations were not raised from a religious source and so were subject to the same rules as other donations.. the 1998 demand was for 45 million euros (61 million dollars) at the time, but this amount had since reached 57.5 million euros, according to france.. it involves donations from 250,000 people over four years, an average amount of four euros per person a month between 1993 and 1996.. the court, based in the french city of strasbourg, however rejected a case of religious discrimination against the jehovah's witnesses.. .

  2010 afp.

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  Doubting Bro

  I may be wrong but I seem to remember the French categorized JWs as a "dangerous sect" and not a real religion and therefore not subject to the tax exemption.

  But, I've also just read that the French government is saying that the donations were actually used to "purchase" literature and therefore subject to tax. In other words, the WTS is a publishing company that should be taxed as other publishing companies.

  If that's the argument, I can see this sticking. The fact is that most of the donations are used for the purpose of literature production. Think about it, the number of WT and Awakes each month, KMs, books, bibles, ect. If they were to spin off the literature production operation into a for profit entity, I would guess they would need at least 75% or more of the total revenues to support it.

  Without literature production, Bethel expenses would be really low. You would really only need a small office complex. DOs, COs and to some extent special pioneers are the only real clergy expenses. Of course, many Bethel heavies would also be included but still the number is pretty low. Plus, if you moved many of them to the for profit publishing company, there would be only a few left.

  Interesting problem. If the WTS loses this case, it will have a profound impact on how they run their business going forward. The Swaggart case here in the US had a drastic impact on their cashflow. I can see this case having just as much of an impact. Couple that with the Spainish government making them pay into social security (which I'd bet the rest of the EU may look into) and the poor economy and you have a recipe for major operational overhaul.
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  25

  European Court of Human Rights to hear JWs tax case against France

  by AndersonsInfo in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  http://www.expatica.com/fr/news/french-news/europe-court-to-hear-jehovah-witness-tax-case-against-france_99836.html.

  europe court to hear jehovah witness tax case against france 9-29-10. the european court of human rights said wednesday it had agreed to consider a case brought by the jehovah witness christian sect against the french government over taxation of donations.. in its request, the group alleged an infringement of the right to religious freedom saying the french government had tried to curtail its activities by demanding in may 1998 taxes on donations from its followers.. the sect said the move was an attempt to end the autonomy of religious communities.. french authorities say the donations were not raised from a religious source and so were subject to the same rules as other donations.. the 1998 demand was for 45 million euros (61 million dollars) at the time, but this amount had since reached 57.5 million euros, according to france.. it involves donations from 250,000 people over four years, an average amount of four euros per person a month between 1993 and 1996.. the court, based in the french city of strasbourg, however rejected a case of religious discrimination against the jehovah's witnesses.. .

  2010 afp.

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  Doubting Bro

  That's what it sounds like to me as well.

  I've been wondering what's been happening with this case. Ynot, you're right - if the WTS loses, I can see them shutting down any operations they have in France qicker than you can say "show me the money".

  This could really have an impact on their operations around the world.

  Should be interesting. I still think that you should not treat one religion differently from the others. I say, tax them all.
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  17

  Comment on CA from JW

  by purplesofa in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  had my ca last weekend.

  it was interesting,here what i got out of it, without giving spoilers, because i know they are not all the same.

  but it seems to me, that due to the new understandings a lot of friends are letting their guard down.possibly thinking, "well, if they change in doctrine once, who knows they might change again".

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  Doubting Bro

  I do find it interesting that the WTS is obviously having problems in the Spanish speaking congos here in the US. This population segement has been the only thing that has kept the numbers from turning negative in the US. If they're starting to slow down, that is not going to be good news for the WTS.

  Apathy continues to be a huge problem and they have no idea how to combat it.
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  47

  How does your congregation feel about the new song book?

  by stuckinamovement in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i stopped trying to sing the songs last meeting.

  it felt like a combination of chanting and stepping on a cat.

  it is terrible.

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  Doubting Bro

  When the new songs came out, didn't they "encourage" folks to get together to practice?

  Sir82 - you're right. There was a letter maybe a month or so read out that announced the songs at the CA so that people could practice ahead of time. I think there were a few songs that hadn't been played yet at a meeting and one where the words were the same but the actual music changed. Needless to say, no one practiced and it sounded just awful. Around where I was sitting, a few folks were laughing when some folks were singing the old song to the old tune rather than the new one.

  The best was one of the new songs that was really awkard (more than usual). Hearing 1,000 people quitely mumble was very funny.

  Nice job Bethel, way to suck what little life was left in your services.
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  35

  Could They Dump The Assemblies?

  by metatron in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  my theory continues to be that the governing body will be forced to break down the organization piece by piece.. so, i wonder: could they dump the assemblies?.

  it is clear - that they are having some problems in this area.

  they are selling off assembly halls in some countries, they have moved some district assemblies to assembly halls (to save money on rent) and the pleas for donations from the platform have not let up.. while zombie witlesses may drag themselves to meetings and out in service (with whatever literature/magazines the watchtower manages to afford) indefinitely, i watch this area with interest.

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  Doubting Bro

  MLE - you make a great point about the positive effect on morale that conventions have. My wife almost always buys a new dress for the convention as well as the memorial. Wait a second..... I think she would be buying new outfits regardless of the event! But, JWs have so few events to look forward to, to celebrate if you will, that a DC can seem like a good time.

  Interestingly, I attended a CA recently and got to see folks I hadn't seen for a long time. Honestly, I enjoyed catching up a bit. It was fun seeing them and reconnecting. But, I would have much rather done that at a party than at the CA.

  However, I also believe that money is the bottom line for the WTS. If those DCs are unprofitable at 3 days, I bet they will reduce to 2 days and see if they can turn a profit.

  There will always be larger gatherings as long as JWs exist, but I think the duration and frequency will depend 100% on profitability.

  St. George - Thanks for the links. Man I wish the US would do this. I would pay to see the WTS US branch books!!
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  58

  For those still in- why do you (really) stay, and what would it take for you to leave the org?

  by serenitynow! in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  for the so-called conscious class, those of you who know it's all a disgusting lie, what is the real reason you stay in?

  i find it hard to understand how ones who know what the org truly is would continue to be an active jw.

  i'm not talking about the "faders"- those with an actual plan to get out as painlessly as possible.

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  Doubting Bro

  MLE - very moving post. I understand what you're saying and I think more JWs do that passive aggressive form of protest than we think. There was a while that I felt reform was possible too. I would still like to see reform happen to prevent others from being harmed but I just don't see it. Teddy's iron fisted influence will last a long time. I think the reason they haven't put on additional GB members is that they're concerned they could upset the balance of power and want to be sure that those selected will reflect the hard line attitude of the current body. Just like when selecting a MS to promote to elder. You want to make sure that nothing will upset the ability of the BOE to "work together".

  As for me, I know that every JW friend I have would drop me like a hot potato and I'm ok with that. I think growing up JW actually made me very cautious about forging strong relationships and trusting others. I always knew that if it my friendship would never be as important to any of those folks as obeying the organization. So, that's not what bothers me.

  Losing my JW relatives would bother me more. However, losing my JW wife and being estranged from my kids is more unbearable to me than going to meetings. No religion is worth that to me. Proving them wrong just doesn't matter that much to me. Now, if there was a situation like blood that came up, then all bets are off. I won't allow someone to die over a man made rule that could change tomorrow.

  If it were blood for me, I'm not sure what I would do. I'd rather not be around than to deal with losing my wife. Not sure if life would be worth living at that point.

  What would it take for me to leave? If my wife said, I don't want to be a JW anymore, I would never set foot in a KH again. Nothing short of that.
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  35

  Could They Dump The Assemblies?

  by metatron in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  my theory continues to be that the governing body will be forced to break down the organization piece by piece.. so, i wonder: could they dump the assemblies?.

  it is clear - that they are having some problems in this area.

  they are selling off assembly halls in some countries, they have moved some district assemblies to assembly halls (to save money on rent) and the pleas for donations from the platform have not let up.. while zombie witlesses may drag themselves to meetings and out in service (with whatever literature/magazines the watchtower manages to afford) indefinitely, i watch this area with interest.

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  Doubting Bro

  My theory is that they would reduce the DC to 2 day events and then make the CA a 1 day event similar to the SAD.

  I also think they will continue the trend of moving DCs to assembly halls where it makes sense financially. They get some of these arenas so cheap, especially arenas owned by the city on the theory that bringing 20k JWs over a several week period will more than make up for itself in additional tax revenue from hotels, etc.

  Most of the AHs I've seen are fairly new and kept up. The rent charged isn't that cheap and they charge more than enough for the upkeep. While I don't see them building a bunch more new ones, I think the ones they currently have are profitable. One close to me is used most weekends.
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  61

  Crap my District Overseer says

  by easyreader1970 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  here are some things that came from the mouth of the district overseer over the course of the two days.

  1. the recession isn't going to end.

  things are screwed because the demons are controlling the world.

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  Doubting Bro

  I went to one within the past month and while those things weren't mentioned although nationalistic sports were (hey the US sucked in the World Cup but I guess some of the Bethel boys must have gotten into it), we did get some tidbits including:

  1 - Not 1 but 2 specific mentions regarding purchasing HD TVs. Both in demos and while not saying you couldn't have one, the were ridiculed and called materialistic. Audience reaction - rollling eyes and jokes afterwards.

  2 - An insane demo on wearing suits when eating out after a DC. Elder counsels a younger guy (inferred that he was a MS) about wearing shorts and a polo shirt to go to dinner after the DC. This dork was wearing his badge, BUT no, not good enough. The young man goes back to his room to change into his convention outfit before going to dinner. Audience reaction (based on some joking conversations afterwards I had with some elders/ms, rolling and head shaking.

  Oh and the usual end is coming, do more stuff that you've come to expect. A whole half hour on why pioneering is such a protection.

  Seriously, WTS! Don't you have enough issues to address beyond this crap?
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  29

  Those that just one day - were not there anymore

  by just n from bethel in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i, like otwo in another thread, never really had a bad experience with jws.

  i never had any case of molestation come up in the the many congregations i served in.

  i never had any major beefs with any elder body.

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  Doubting Bro

  Well written just-n. Very interesting story and I agree that reading the Bible in context without WT spin gives you a completely different take on things.